Opt Out, Healthy For The Nation
By Oak Leaf ~ October 24th, 2009 @ 7:07 am
I believe in States Rights and because of that ethos, the proposed opt out is indeed healthy for the Nation;
Both Pelosi and Clyburn said they would be open to the Senate’s opt-out approach. “I don’t think there’s much problem with that,” Pelosi said. Clyburn added: “All they’re debating is whether or not to allow states to opt out of it, but you’ll still have the same public option.”
And if the People of Florida, or any State, want to support individuals like Charlie Crist they deserve this kind of “health care option.”
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October 24th, 2009 at 7:30 am
They want an option on whether or not to have an option?
God, I hope the Democrats play hardball and give the States an option to opt out of the opt out.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:55 am
The blue states will happily enslave their residents to the mandates and option. The free states (red) will happily tell obammer to shove it where the sun don’t shine.
Blue states get bluer,red states get redder, purple states turn red.
If the demonrat version of socialized medicine is so great, why must they use brute force to cram ir down the people’s throats??
Doesn’t say much for a party that prides itself on caring for the “llittle people”. does it??
The demonrat party is the closest thing we have to fascism in this country, and the brain dead dipshits taht constantly scream “fascism” at conservatives should look in the mirror.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:12 am
Doesn’t say much for a party that prides itself on caring for the “llittle people”. does it??
…….
Nor does it say much for the party that prides itself on being “Pro Choice”
October 24th, 2009 at 8:32 am
same party, ditchcarp denizens of the demonrat party.
They want “choice” in killing babies, but no chioce in health care decisions.
Hypocrisy thy name is liberalism.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Actually, the dems will go wit the option. It’s the republicans that don’t want anything at all. And red states will take the option just like they took stimulus money. Republicans talk all ideology, but when the rubber hits the road, ideology doesn’t clothe and feed you, nor does it pay the hospital bills. In the end America wins. Democrats win. Obama wins. All good.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:35 am
In the end America wins. Democrats win. Obama wins. All good.
If obamacare is so great, why do they have to mandate it??
[To be honest, I have kept my socialist health care after I came off my mob. I pay the feds the premium each month and I am happy with it. It is Reserve TRICARE and I prefer it over Blue Cross which is what my employees have. OL]
Robbing peter tp pay paul is a fraud, and like all ponzi schemes it will come to an end with societal bankruptcy. You neo fascists never learn that.
[Why should I pay taxes to rebuild Louisiana after hurricanes? OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Arizona may lead the WAY
October 24th, 2009 at 9:39 am
States leading the way out of socialized medicine.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:40 am
States are now opting out of socialized medicine.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Florida,texas,SD others rejecting obamacare
[ANYONE in Florida that would prefer Crists Crap Care over anything from Obama is not sane. But again, very few know what Crist did to Florida. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Not so fast obamacare
October 24th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Not so fast kemosabi
October 24th, 2009 at 10:08 am
states rejectingbig brother
October 24th, 2009 at 10:09 am
The question is whether you can opt out of the taxes that will support the public option. If you have to take the taxes, even when you opt out of the benefits, its not much of an opt out.
October 24th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Good point
October 24th, 2009 at 10:31 am
After Lincoln established that the Feds can march an army through any states that refused to follow Washington DC’s dictates, the right of nullification (which is what this amounts to) has been abolished.
[The rabid right can not realize that. This would have the added benefit of setting up further and future precedent. OL]
[But again this is all like Nation Building. They were against it when Clinton did it, supported Bush doing it and going against it under Obama. Me? Against it all the way, everytime. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 11:11 am
If you have to take the taxes, even when you opt out of the benefits, its not much of an opt out.
centrist
Collectivism in a nutshell. The leftist wet dream, put everyone on the gubmint tit.
October 24th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
If they private sector breaks it and refuses to fix it, than who should put the pieces back together?
[I will disagree with you that the blame rests solely on the private sector. The blame in reality lies with the consumers who demand more and more because they are not paying for it. Prior to getting the TRICARE for reservists, I always had high deductible Blue Cross Plans which meant, I paid for everything out of pocket. Prescriptions? Can you say Canadian mail order! Lab Tests? Always had a chat with the Doc before anything was ordered. I know too many people on the right and left that when they go to the Doc they have a list of scripts they want based on what commercial they saw. But the bottom line is that the health care/insurance system in the USA, created out of flawed US Policy 60 odd years ago, literally bankrupted General Motors and will in time bankrupt the rest of the economy. Health Insurance premiums have literally become a tax on the producers in the USA and I am astonished the GOP does not look at health care premiums imposed on business as being a tax!! But alas I do understand because they are largely on the mooching end. FWIW, the business that I own pays far more in health insurance premiums than ALL taxes that the business pays and what I pay personally. Forget about cutting any of my taxes, cut the health insurance "tax" that I pay. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
[But again this is all like Nation Building. They were against it when Clinton did it, supported Bush doing it and going against it under Obama. Me? Against it all the way, everytime. OL]
I can’t disagree with you at all OL. Many Republicans (esp Rush Limbaugh) have the “my party right or wrong” mentality.
October 24th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
The private sector didn’t “break it’” The advent of gubmint intrusion did. Medicare/medicaide drove up the prices, not the free market. Injecting a third payer into the equation always distorts the market place.
The eurosocialists have had decades to “fix” the so called problem, and they are all health care basket cases.
[Health care basket cases? European life expectancy is better than the USA. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
So what’s the plan to pay for this thing?
[I am a business owner. The problem is that the cost is so far away from the consumer. If you move the cost off the back of business, it will be greater than any GOP tax cut!! The GOP mantra is cut corporate income tax. That is small potatoes compared to health insurance/care (aka tax). Look at cars as an example. How much of each US built car is health care cost? Remove that expense and suddenly you can compete better with foreign companies. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Rob peter to pay paul, what else.
October 24th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
So how do we fix it? No more government intervention? Kill Medicare/Medicaid?
I’m genuinely curious to hear the rights take on this. Unless I’m looking in the wrong place, all I’ve heard from the right is “No Socialized Medicine!!!” and not much else.
[I am biased as a business owner. I am also consistent. Health insurance/care has become the new tax on business because employees have driven up the cost by demanding everything. So step one, is get the responsibility off the back of business. Besides, right now health care decisions are being made by business owners. I decide on the plan for my employees which is called RATIONING. But I will admit what it is. I RATION health care for my employees because I can only afford so much out of my pocket. The GOP will never admit that RATIONING is occurring everyday except the employer is deciding it not the Government. I am amazed that so many deny it and think employers will be more benevolent than government. OL]
[Oh, you will not hear "No socialized medicine" from me. My business excludes health insurance for stockholders. My employees have Blue Cross. I have TRICARE for reservists which is federal health care and I LOVE it!! I love my socialized health care!! OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
So step one, is get the responsibility off the back of business.
And put it on the backs of the taxpayer of course. Socialize medicine. Poliboard with a conservative bent my butt.
[I thought the GOP was all for eliminating burdens on business. If you reduce the cost of operating a business, then business will have more money to produce more jobs...... As a business owner, why should I have to pay for someones health care? As a shareholder in public companies why should the return on my investment be less to give someone else health care? There are three ways to pay for health care; individually, government or business based. Business based is the worst possible scenario. IMO, it should be solely an individual expense, absent that a government expense. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Oak Leaf, so no more insurance from employer. Then buy directly from insurance industry?
If TRICARE is that nice, how about giving any American a chance to buy in?
[TRICARE is designed to work within the military community, just like VA. But I have no problem with opening up Medicare for all with a surcharge along the lines of COBRA. My point is that all the talk about socialized medicine is nonsense. I have socialized health care and I am not complaining. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
I RATION health care for my employees because I can only afford so much out of my pocket.
Absolutely no comparison. Rationing that happens under a socialized system means that unless you are very wealthy, you can’t get care. Your employees have the choice to work somewhere else or get supplemental insurance. To compare a private enterprise with the federal government is just ridiculous.
[Why should business be stuck having to pay for health care that is spiraling out of control because people do not care what they buy medical wise? More and more employers are going to JUST SAY NO and tell people go get their own plan. Thats what happens when people are mooches. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
“If you move the cost off the back of business, it will be greater than any GOP tax cut!! ”
Just make all costs tax deductible…
October 24th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
“If you move the cost off the back of business, it will be greater than any GOP tax cut!! ”
Make all costs tax deductible.
[The Blue Cross I write each month for my employees is in the five figures and it is deductible. The net net cost out of MY POCKET to provide that is greater than all other taxes combined that I pay and my business pays. Premiums have spiraled out of control and worker productivity has not gone up with that cost. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
More and more employers are going to JUST SAY NO and tell people go get their own plan. Thats what happens when people are mooches. OL]
You will still be paying for them, as they move their “moochines” from you to the gubmint, demanding subsidized health insurance. Guess who’s taxes go up to pay for that???
October 24th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
The Blue Cross I write each month for my employees is in the five figures and it is deductible. The net net cost out of MY POCKET to provide that is greater than all other taxes combined that I pay and my business pays. Premiums have spiraled out of control and worker productivity has not gone up with that cost. OL
Do you offer your employees health insurance or a prepaid health care plan? Real insurance would cover catastrophic costs and not routine health care expenditures. Real insurance would have a (relatively) high deductible that would pick up the costs for the most expensive health care expenditures (e.g. major surgery).
[I absolutely agree!! OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
[TRICARE is designed to work within the military community, just like VA. But I have no problem with opening up Medicare for all with a surcharge along the lines of COBRA. My point is that all the talk about socialized medicine is nonsense. I have socialized health care and I am not complaining. OL]
Do you expect for Obamacare to function like TRICARE?
October 24th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
But I have no problem with opening up Medicare for all with a surcharge along the lines of COBRA.
Medicare has an unfunded liability of around $90T. I am sure Medicare for all would work out just fine and dandy.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
“Medicare has an unfunded liability of around $90T. I am sure Medicare for all would work out just fine and dandy.”
Except people will be buying in. That monthly check to Blue Cross would instead go to Medicare minus all that profit.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
That monthly check to Blue Cross would instead go to Medicare minus all that profit. ~~~MIKE
You are delusional. It will wind up costing more when the army of federalnbureaucrats take their cut of the pie. Typical leftist doublethink about thoise evil profits, right out of the marxist/leninist playbook.
Without the profit motive, we would be a third world country. Before obongo is finished, we will be.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
I have socialized health care and I am not complaining. OL]
Of course not, someone else is paying for it. Most people on the take seem to like it. Robbing peter to pay paul is great for paul, but is a kick in the balls for peter.
[Actually TRICARE for reservists is premium based. OL]
October 24th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
This is really embarrassing, the mental breakdown by the poster that shows no sign of improvement…
You don’t want to pay HC costs? You don’t like money coming out of YOUR POCKET YOUR POCKET?
Fine. Cancel your health coverage for your employees. Or lay them off. Nobody and no law is forcing you to pay for this.
Put your money where your crying sissy mouth is and cancel the check, you coward. Or lay your people off, or sell your business.
Otherwise, STFU.
You call people who receive health insurance as a benefit from their employer (which is paid in dollars that could be paid to the employee, btw, as salary) mooches?
[Years ago health insurance was indeed a benefit, but it has morphed into a tax and it will bankrupt business just like it did with GM. OL]
So everyone is a mooch but you, is that it? All the wall streeters taking bailout money are the devil right? But government should run health care so you don’t have to pay it, right? Who’s the f***ing cheapskate here? Everything should be nationalized so you can save money?
Be a man, you giant pussy. Cancel your health insurance, or layoff your staff. Nobody is making you pay them anything.
You are one of those people that are functionally insane. I’m surprised you’re not blogging from a mental hospital in fact.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Profit has its place. It has no business where lives and health are concerned. Sorry for the pun.
Where are these rich, greedy government bureaucrats you speak of?
October 24th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Total mental breakdown.
What an embarrassment for Poli, to have this posted on his web site.
I’d love to get a peek at Oak’s psych eval. I’d like his employees to read his blogs….
Peter principle all over it, I’ll bet. Functionally insane, drives his car to work every day and tucks his kids in bed every night and anyone who talks to him for more than 45 seconds knows he should be in an insane asylum.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Profit has its place. It has no business where lives and health are concerned. Sorry for the pun.
Good luck finding docs. lol. People who work hard, and lead their field, don’t do it for a pat on the back from Rahm.
You stupid moron.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
“Good luck finding docs. lol. People who work hard, and lead their field, don’t do it for a pat on the back from Rahm.
You stupid moron.”
Talking about insurance. Try to keep up.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Where are these rich, greedy government bureaucrats you speak of? MIKE
They are working for your hero obongo as we speak. The medical pros work for “profit”, will you curtail them next??
October 24th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
“The medical pros work for “profit”, will you curtail them next??”
Nope.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
nope
Why not, they are rich profit seekers.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
“Why not, they are rich profit seekers.”
They have earned their right, through hard work, to make they’re salaries.
Health insurance companies earn their profits solely by fucking over their policy holders.
Also, most medical professionals are NOT rich.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Health insurance companies earn their profits solely by fucking over their policy holders.
If they were fucking over their policy holders, they would have no business at all. Voluntary exchange seems to be a hard concept for liberal to grasp.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Health insurance companies earn their profits solely by fucking over their policy holders~~mike
What a steaming load of marxist/leninst bravo sierra. Socialism 101.
If it weren’t for the risk takers(insurance cos,and every other profit seeking business) you would be wearing a tin beak and picking shit with the chickens.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
“If they were fucking over their policy holders, they would have no business at all. Voluntary exchange seems to be a hard concept for liberal to grasp.”
You’re kidding, right?
October 24th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Voluntary exchange seems to be a hard concept for liberal to grasp.
Class envy socialism comes much easier to them, it requires no cognizant thinking ability. As rush would say, brains full of mush.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
You’re kidding, right?~~mikw
Please show us you have some original thinking that wasn’t first dragged through some cesspool of neo marxist indoctrination. You have become a parody.
As yajoo would say, you’re a “godamned lying communist.”
October 24th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
Guess I got it wrong. Health insurance companies are perfect little angels. Abusing antitrust exemption, dropping and denying care must be figments of my imagination.
Wingnutland must be an awesome place to live.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
“dropping and denying care must be figments of my imagination.”
In a free market,gubmint has no business forcing them to do business with anyone . I forgot,free market is a dirty word to a godamned lying communist. Move to sweden with the rest of your collectivist friends.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Capitalism only works when it’s not being abused.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Capitalism only works when it’s not being abused.
The only abuse of capitalism is at the hands of marxists like yourself.
Socialim only works when it is mandated by govt. fiat.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Guess I got it wrong. Health insurance companies are perfect little angels. Abusing antitrust exemption, dropping and denying care must be figments of my imagination.
Wingnutland must be an awesome place to live.
That would be called reality. If insurance companies did not provide a service that their customers value while at the same time realizing a profit, they would be out of business. The fact that they are in business shows that they are capable of providing a service that their customers are willing to pay for. Now, on the other hand, consider government. It recieves all its income through force. No matter what you think about the service, you are still forced to pay and it never goes out of business.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
The inherent vice of capitalism, is the unequal sharing of blessings, the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.~~W Churchill
socialism: philosophy of failure,creed of ignorance,gospel of envy
W.Churchill
October 24th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
That was true years ago. Not true of the health insurance industry of 2009. People have no choice now. Pay what they demand or get nothing. Go to a competitor? If there is one, price-fixing just screwed you over. They drop you? goodluck. You made the insurance industry “black list.”
Republicans – perpetually stuck in the 1950s.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Republicans – perpetually stuck in the 1950s.
demokrats–perpetuality stuck in the new deal.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
That was true years ago. Not true of the health insurance industry of 2009. People have no choice now. Pay what they demand or get nothing. Go to a competitor? If there is one, price-fixing just screwed you over. They drop you? goodluck. You made the insurance industry “black list.”
Republicans – perpetually stuck in the 1950s.
Haven’t you insisted that they already get nothing? If they are already getting nothing, why are they getting paid so much money? It seems logical to me if I am not getting anything in return for my money then I am better off holding on to my money. Any by the way, insurance companies may not be angels but they be the hell out of government. You insists that we pay what the insurance companies demand or get nothing. With government, it is pay what they demand or go to jail.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
“Republicans – perpetually stuck in the 1950s.
demokrats–perpetuality stuck in the new deal.”
Ok. You win. My dream of a Medicare buy-in is off the table. I’ll call Harry in the morning and have it removed from the bill.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
“Haven’t you insisted that they already get nothing? If they are already getting nothing, why are they getting paid so much money?”
Who gets nothing? Who’s getting so much money? What are you rambling about?
October 24th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
“With government, it is pay what they demand or go to jail.”
At least with jail, you get health care.
October 25th, 2009 at 6:29 am
I still don’t see why you wouldn’t want to make them tax deductible regardless of the Democrat plan you also favor.
It might help you some what at least by at least getting rid of taxes.
October 25th, 2009 at 7:27 am
At least with jail, you get health care.
Typical liberal. Favors security over freedom.
October 25th, 2009 at 7:34 am
Who gets nothing?
You insists that policy holders get nothing.
Who’s getting so much money?
You insists that insurance companies get so much in return for providing nothing.
October 25th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Breaking News:
FEMA Secret Internment Camp #605 in Terre Haute, IN has just been officially renamed Sycamore Manor *gulp* Retirement Village.
October 25th, 2009 at 8:26 am
” You insists that policy holders get nothing.
You insists that insurance companies get so much in return for providing nothing.”
No, I said “fucked-over.” Should have known better than to argue reality with an Ayn Rand fan.
Next time you’re having your head removed from your ass, tell your doctor how great you think the health insurance industry is. See if he gives you a “terrorist fist jab” in enthusiastic agreement.
October 25th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Methinks mike needs a session from sigmoid freud ASAP.
His terminal marxism is showing signs of taing over.
October 25th, 2009 at 9:25 am
It is not an “opt-out” if the Fed has to approve it.
October 25th, 2009 at 9:31 am
More and more employers are going to JUST SAY NO and tell people go get their own plan.
So? I think the best health care reform is to put the individual in charge and stop the employment based model. However, what Obama and the Dems are proposing is a federal takeover and you seem to support it.
[The root of the problem is that health care consumers are typically not the individual who pays the bills, hence the disconnect. There is no incentive for the mooches to stop mooching!! Health insurance/care is a "tax" on business no different than the employer half of FICA, FUTA, corporate income tax, regulatory burden..... I am "shocked" that the GOP speaks about lowering business costs EXCEPT when it comes to health care. So we will hear the GOP say things like lower corporate income tax BUT the real elephant in the room is the Blue Cross premium!! Guess what, I believe business costs need to be lowered across the board, the entire board and that includes health care/insurance. The side effect is that it gets the health care consumer CLOSER to the actual cost and that is good. The fact is that the majority of Americans are far removed from health care costs. OL]
October 25th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Health care profits not so fat 5.4%
[That is a fact I have known for a long long time and I will use the mention of that to piss off the other side of the aisle so everyone can be pissed at OL. Health Insurance is NOT hugely expensive because of PROFITS!!! Case in point, look at all the non-profit Blue Cross Plans!! Guess what, they have huge premiums too!! The reason health care/insurance is so expensive is the fact that everyone wants lots of care as long as someone else is paying for it!! The day of reckoning is indeed coming as more and more employers are just going to say thats it, get your own policy. Face it, if we do not have health care rationing with respect to someone else paying for it, we are heading to the day when health care will consume all the country's resources. I do not believe anyone has a right to demand unlimited medical care if someone else is paying for it!! If you want to spend your own money on a fancy treatment then fine, but do not expect someone else to pay for it. OL]
October 25th, 2009 at 11:44 am
OL
What kind of HC reform do you support?
October 25th, 2009 at 11:49 am
The root of the problem is that health care consumers are typically not the individual who pays the bills, hence the disconnect. There is no incentive for the mooches to stop mooching!!
OL, you sound schizophrenic. On one hand you call people people who have health insurance through their employer mooches and on the other you seem to be advocating socialized health care.
October 25th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Health insurance/care is a “tax” on business no different than the employer half of FICA, FUTA, corporate income tax, regulatory burden
Health insurance/care is a cost and not a tax. With a tax, you are required to pay or else you will face fines, penalties , and incarceration. The decision to provide health insurance is based on a negotiated compensation package between the employer and employee. There are no fines, penalties nor is there any threat of incarceration for not providing health insurance benefits.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
So make all health cost tax deductible.
Businesses that previously couldn’t provide would be able to because they could do that instead of taxes.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
As I understand it, health insurance cost is already tax deductible for businesses.
October 25th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
AP: Health insurer profits not so fat
October 25th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Look, Oak, General Motors went out of business because they’re incompetent morons. You wanted to bail them out, and bankrupt me, my country, and even more importantly my 10 grandchildren, despite the fact that GM are incompetent morons.
We owed GM nothing… we owe you nothing. If you go bankrupt, it’ll be because you are an incompetent moron… and no other reason. Not health care… not nothin’.
Pay your employees whatever you want. Give them high deductible health plans… or not. Give them nothing if it suits you. But for crisakes, get off this leftist fantasy world nonsense that somebody else owes you something.
We owe you nothing. Nothing. Stop sticking your hand out and begging for my grandchildren to pay the future bill for you to live comfortably today. It’s despicable.
This is how the kooky Left thinks… that somebody owes them something… that infants in the cradle owe them, and they are justified in bankrupting them with their massive growth in spending and government. It’s just despicable.
Stop it. Stop it now, before it’s too late, and we destroy their future with this fiscal insanity. Isn’t this obvious to you?
It starts with individuals… it starts with you. Put your upturned hand down, and stop begging.