What’s New?
Obama better have something new to say about Obamacare tomorrow:
Obama will do interviews with all of the Sunday talk shows, excluding Fox News Sunday, and on the popular Spanish-language channel Univision.
Analysts predict that if the president doesn’t say something new about healthcare, he will likely end up in the Monday morning papers being quoted on one of controversies from earlier this week.
…
“The president can go on C-SPAN at four in the morning and drive the news, if he has news to make,” Schnur said. “But he can eat fire and juggle on American Idol, and if he doesn’t have news to make on healthcare, then he’s going to end up making news on something else.”
I doubt if Obama has anything new to say about Obamacare; he and his minions believe that he can increase support for Obamacare by simply repeating the same talking points to different audiences. I wonder what controversy will end up dominating the coverage instead…
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September 19th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Poli:
Each day he grows weaker.
September 19th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
“I doubt if Obama has anything new to say about Obamacare; he and his minions believe that he can increase support for Obamacare by simply repeating the same talking points to different audience”
And yet still far too many people have distorted, inaccurate or just plain idiotic notions of what his proposals and goals are. Wonder why that is?
“I wonder what controversy will end up dominating the coverage instead…”
Bingo.
September 19th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
OT, but relevant to an earlier reactionary and ignorant post that was critical of Obama’s decision to halt anti-missile system deployment in Eastern Europe:
“AP – Russia said Saturday it will scrap a plan to deploy missiles near Poland since Washington has dumped a planned missile shield in Eastern Europe. It also harshly criticized Iran’s president for new comments denying the Holocaust.”
Just some evidence that diplomacy works and Elections Matter.
September 19th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Ah yes, nothing’s more rock solid than an agreement with Communists. But maybe it’s because they are your ideological brethren, so I’ll defer.
And by they way, you goddamned lying communist, the precise wording was the Russians “will freeze and POSSIBLY cancel” the deployment plans altogether.
Meanwhile, you goddamned lying communist, you left out the headlines from the Polish and Czech papers, which indicated dismay at the decision. “Betrayed”, I believe, was the phrase they used.
Diplomacy works? Ah, so there’s no chance of any Russian aggression against former satellites now, nor any Iranian against Israel, then? Heh.
diplomacy does not work when the bad guys know there’s no bite backing up the bark.
And yes, elections do indeed have consequences. We elected a Communist, and now the other Communists have veto power over deployments in contested areas it would seem.
You goddamned lying communist.
September 19th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Keep up the good work, Ken:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9ks36c549BI/SrQnlGx-CNI/AAAAAAAABDU/PqxxXOWA0bg/s1600-h/republican+unpopularity.png
September 19th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Oh, and no lies are being told about Obamacare from the right. You might notice we are typing the president’s own words and those of his aids and advisers concerning rationing of care, pain pills in lieu of treatment for the elderly, and denial of care for economic and political reasons, all of which have been alluded to by your side. “Death panels” is a term that accurately summarizes the combination of measures that will be taken under the plan as written in the house.
You goddamned lying communist.
September 19th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Yahoo,
First of all, I don’t believe in any God, so using that epithet on me is utterly pointless. Saying that I am “damned” by whatever made-up supernatural being you may believe in is about as meaningful as saying it was the little green men in your head who told you to say bad things or go off the rails.
Second of all, I’m not a “Communist” by any normal definition of the word. Your lord only knows what your definition is (and by “Lord” I mean Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh).
Third, you are certainly entitled to be an ignorant angry jerk all you want, and to make sure everyone knows it (as you’ve done here). But please don’t become confused into thinking that your senseless contributions will be regarded as anything but the ravings of a sick mind. If this is your therapeutic outlet, great. But if you are hoping that your “views” may be relevant to any rational point of discussion, I would re-think your entire approach from the ground up.
September 19th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
My point to you, you gdlc, is that Obama’s the one lying about his National Socialist healthcare plan, not the opponents of that plan.
And you do support this Marxist Leninist POTUS, and you DO support his nationalization of the various sectors of the economy, and you DO regard the government as the reservior of all virtue, and you don’t give a damn about the bill of rights, and you ARE an amoral scumbag.
you gdlc.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
“Obama’s the one lying about his National Socialist healthcare plan, not the opponents of that plan.”
No he’s not, but it’s very likely you would be incapable of knowing whether he was or not as your feeble understanding of it is very likely based on what your Lords Beck and Limbaugh have been telling you. Which are lies, of course.
And its not the opponents of “his plan” that are the problem, it’s the opponents of his party, his political philosophy, his power, his race, his everything. Because many people, like three year old brats, can’t stand not getting things exactly their way. And when that happens they get really angry and start yelling and calling names and trying as hard as possible to bring as much attention to themselves as possible in the belief that the Grownups will do anything just to shut them up.
The current Republican political philosophy in a nutshell, provided here in microcosm by the Yahoo.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
“…and you DO regard the government as the reservior of all virtue, and you don’t give a damn about the bill of rights, and you ARE an amoral scumbag.”
And you ARE ranting away about all kinds of stupidity that you have absolutely no idea about.
Like I said above, time to rethink the whole approach here Yahoo.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Scott Horton interviews Daniel Ellsberg about the new movie about him.
I hope it comes to dvd.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
There is no plan. He has no plan , they have no plan. They have promters shaggy dog stories and hate for their detracters. This is as empty as O’s suit. More of the same jive.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
The last 6 months, you gdlc, have shown that if nothing else, you gdlcs are masters of projections.
And nice job with the race card too. Can’t have a day go by without it.
you gdlc.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
the house has a plan, foster, and the Senate has several, all of them horrible, and making the health care problems we have now much worse, and adding to the deficit as well.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Never say a white guy can’t rap.
This guy is awesome.
September 19th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Or this one.
September 20th, 2009 at 12:35 am
Trey Grayson officially enters race for U.S. senate.
September 20th, 2009 at 2:24 am
- ““Obama’s the one lying about his National Socialist healthcare plan, not the opponents of that plan.” – To quote a phrase “There you go again…”. Honestly RWY, I think that you repubs have had lobotomies – the way you spout that same old crap without a blink. Your whole sentence is a lie – Obama’s plan is not socialist healthcare – none of the healthcare providers in his plan are government employees, nor are the facilities and equipment the propert of the Government. You simply buy an insurance plan (if you’re lucky, from the Government), and when you get sick and got to the Dr., the Government pays the bill. This is not socialized medicine.
Socialized medicine was what I had when I was in the USAF. The facilities belong the Government, the equipment belonged to the Government, the doctors, nurses, and admin staff were all Government employees. I had no say in my care, and I was even required to follow a strict physical fitness regimine (or I could lose privileges or even my job). That was socialized medicine. And you know what? It was the best healthcare I have ever had. The physicals were thorough and frequent, and when a problem was found, all hell broke loose to fix it. They found a heart murmor once, and the next day they flew me up to Brooks AFB, wired me up, shoved me on a treadmill, poked and prodded for a week before the found the problem, got me some medicine and some physical therapy, and bang, I was cured! And it cost me nothing. For most of my career I had my own personal doctor (a flight surgeon), and I got medicine within minutes of getting a perscription ( the Government owned the pharmacy, too). Now it helps that I was on flight status, but you get the picture. Obama’s plan isn’t socialized medicine, and speaking as a person that has lived under socialized medicine, I sure wish it was.
Now I understand that you guys hate Obama and the dems, and it’s obvious that there’s nothing you won’t do to defeat their agenda. But I, and rest of the civilized world cannot fathom why you people insist on:
1) The right to pay twice as much as the rest of the world for mediocre health care;
2) The right to be dropped by your insurance carrier should you get sick;
3) The right to be denied insurance because of a pre-existing condition, as defined by the insurance company;
4) The right to lose your insurance if you lose your job;
5) The right to lose your insurance should your employer decide he doesn’t want to provide it or contribute to it;
6) The right to have insane co-pays and preminums that go up every year just because.
Really, your ideology is costing you real money. And the sad fact is most of those poor idiots that like their current policy have never had to use it. When they do, they’re in for a shock – ask Glenn Beck when he had to have his ass operated on (why is it all your right wing spokesholes have problems with their asses?).
Check it out – your Congresscritters all have sweet healthcare plans that allow them to use private healthcare providers. But when they really get sick, they all go to that neat little military hospital that the President uses. The one that the Government owns all the equipment, and all the staff are military (government employees). When the chips are down – they all pick socialized medicine. But they spend all their free time telling you how bad it is and spend all their energy making sure you can’t get it. And you guys swallow it all up. Why is that?
September 20th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Hey I have a question. Why does this LGF website love Irving Kristol and the Iraq war but hate Glen Beck and Tea Party people?
Is it a right or left wing website?
————————————–
RIP: Irving Kristol
One of the great conservative intellectuals, often called the “godfather of neoconservatism,” Irving Kristol has died at the age of 89.
Quotes from Kristol’s long history of writing: Irving Kristol’s Reality Principles.
September 20th, 2009 at 6:56 am
MikeyW;
Thanks for a great post. It’s amazing, isn’t it, that the public is not anywhere near as aware of situations like yours that refute the idiotic reflexive opposition to the strawman “socialized medicine”, or to the growing millions of people who don’t have any coverage at all and are suffering greatly, or dying, as a result.
I suppose the answer to this is fairly obvious: the media is either 1) on the side of the corporations who benefit greatly from the status quo, or 2) too stupid and lazy to provide unbiased factual information, leading to the wall to wall coverage of the ranting angry ignorant Obama haters and their daily antics.
Here’s another example of the problem of information. Why hasn’t the following point become as well known or better than the false propaganda the wingnut posters on this thread are spewing?
“The average health-care coverage for the average family now costs $13,375, according to Kaiser. Over the past decade, premiums have increased by 138 percent. And if the trend continues, by 2019 the average family plan will cost $30,083.”
The status quo will help continue polarize America between the unbelievably wealthy and the rest of us and in the process weaken us all as a nation, except for the elite few who 1) have enough money to take care of their own medical needs, 2) can isolate themselves from an increasingly poorer and less healthy general population, 3) have disproportionate influence over laws and legislation that allow them to avoid paying a fair share of taxes and protects their “right” to invent new ways of stealing money from people, and 4) never send their children to fight in the wars they promote the loudest.
September 20th, 2009 at 7:13 am
For the Left, disagreement is illegitimate. It’s that simple. People who disagree are stupid and uninformed. On health care, it’s business as usual for the Left, it appears.
The mainstream disagrees with them on this. That would be the majority of us, disagreeing.
The Left has been so shrill and foolish in disparaging those people, so that they’ve completely alienated them, to the point that they literally prefer to do NOTHING rather than follow the Left’s prescriptions here.
That’s pretty stunning, but it’s true. Check the data.
What use is more Obama blather? That’s turning out to be a turn off, for we in the mainstream, even if the Left shrieks lovingly over it.
Again, check the data.
September 20th, 2009 at 7:45 am
21 comments and more than half are from long-winded trolls or acroso. Time to make this blog great again Poli.
September 20th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Obama Sunday morning interview
President Obama says he has no plans to ask the Justice Department to end its criminal investigation into the harsh interrogations of suspected terrorists during the Bush administration.
Seven former CIA directors have asked the president to do just that. In a letter to Obama on Friday, they warned that the probe could discourage CIA officers from doing the kind of aggressive intelligence work needed to fight terrorism.
September 20th, 2009 at 9:11 am
“Time to make this blog great again Poli.”
Just what would that entail?
September 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am
McCock/mikey==The right to be stupid.
September 20th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
“For the Left, disagreement is illegitimate.”
Aura, really, when you speak so authoritatively about something you clearly know so little about, and the little that you do know has very likely come from the Rightwing Propagandists Beck and Limbaugh, don’t you think it would just be better to keep quiet rather than display such stunning ignorance?
Look, I’ll frankly admit that I don’t know much about what goes on in the fevered minds of angry wingnuts like you, or what kind of mental status leads to your particular brand of noxious blathering ignorance. It’s quite foreign to me. And the truth is, I care NOT ONE BIT to find out. Because it is irrelevant and unnecessary to presume what your motives might be when all that is needed to put you in your place are a few facts. From reality.
I don’t need to care, for example, that nearly everything you accuse the left of is actually a symptom of your own behavior. You see, this is where the alleged insight of your opponents behavior MUST derive in the total absence of any direct knowledge of the left…from within your own fevered and warped minds.
You only provide an insight into your own thinking by blathering on so angrily…so thanks for that anyway.
September 21st, 2009 at 4:56 am
Um, you do know that we in the mainstream disagree with you, don’t you, lefty?
Maybe you should check the data, if you require confirmation of that fact.
And that’s what the Left is shrieking about now… that we in the mainstream disagree with them… and for the Left, that disagreement is always illegitimate.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:13 am
“Um, you do know that we in the mainstream disagree with you, don’t you, lefty?”
Only if you re-define “mainstream” as “angry far right anti-Obama extremists.” LOL.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:44 am
No, I define mainstream as those of us who oppose ObamaCare, which is the majority of us. We’d rather do nothing than do what the Left is fantasizing, which is a pretty stunning development, given our desire to resolve certain of these health care issues. But we in the mainstream adjudge it best to shitcan the whole mess, rather than follow the tainted path the Left has taken.
Again, check the data if you require confirmation.
Of course, for the Left, the mainstream is illegitimate, and has no business disagreeing with them. Boy are you in for a rude surprise in November 2010.
September 21st, 2009 at 9:51 am
Unfortunately, the majority of people, like you aura, don’t actually know enough about “Obamacare” to legitimately oppose it. Most of what they believe now is based on the falsehoods being put out by the Republicans who themselves have wonderful government-run healthcare but want to deny it for anyone else. Doesn’t that make you scratch your head? Why haven’t any of these multimillionaire hacks renounced the very benefit they now fight to kill?
It’s because the whole thing is political, that’s why.
When American’s are asked about whether they recognize that healthcare costs are a problem that must be dealt with, the majority agree.
Furthermore, a recent poll among DOCTORS shows overwhelming support (around 70%) for Obama’s goals and plan.
And anyway, as far as public opinion polls, the data that needs checking happened last November. Public opinion polls based on a media-assisted false advertising and smear campaign mean nothing except that the rich and powerful can still shape transient public opinion to suit their agenda.
September 21st, 2009 at 1:38 pm
- “For the Left, disagreement is illegitimate.” – I wouldn’t say that. Disagreement is fine, but it should be based on sound reasoning. When someone on medicare is screaming that he’s afraid the government may take over his healthcare, it indicates ingnorance. When a prominent business news anchorperson asks a 45 yr old congressman why he isn’t on Medicare if he thinks it’s so great, that indicates ignorance. And when a guy who just got laid off from work and lost his health insurnace is protesting a proposal that would allow him to purchase affordable health insurance (as opposed to COBRA), it indicates ignorance. These folks are not informed – they’re terrified and confused by folks like you, Beck, and Limbaugh who know better, but will stop at nothing to push a flawed ideology – even while people die and their lives are being ruined by our current health care model.
- “No, I define mainstream as those of us who oppose ObamaCare, which is the majority of us.” – I don’t believe that’s correct. The latest stats indicate that 70-80% of Americans want health care reform and over 50% want a public option. You’re welcome to bring up some links to back up you claim, though.
September 21st, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Good Gaia, are you lefties still fantasizing that there’s some support for this ObamaCare kookiness
And you’re still ignoring the data as well?
Is this drug induced? Brought on by multiple narcotics abuse? Cocaine AND Heroin?
56% of us want to shitcan this leftist kookiness. That’d be the mainstream, fyi.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform
Again, check the data, if you require confirmation.
And whimpering that people are stupid and uninformed isn’t really helping your cause, Warner. We in the mainstream are quite well informed, thank you. We reject your kookiness, and ObamaCare. And we’re blessedly free of narcotics, as well.
Start dealing with reality, and you’ll be able to participate in the discussion. Right now, you’re easily dismissed as leftist kooks.
September 21st, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Ya’ know, if you lefties would get real and participate reasonably, we wouldn’t have to shitcan your whole kooky program, and you along with it.
Just some reasonable reforms, sensible, budget nuetral, things many agree upon… and we’d git ‘er dun.
But no, for the kooks, it’s socialized medicine or bust, it would appear. So, into the shitcan with the Left. That’s the decision we in the mainstream have made.
We’ll pick up and deal with this, after the 2010 election.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Of course the only poll that matters was held last November, and you lost that one big. You are fringe and getting fringier each day. There’s nothing kooky about the proposed heathcare plans (except Baucus’, because he’s trying to appeal to republicans and special interests). Basically, the right has been allowed to lie their asses off and a lazy media has let them get away with it.
Just listen to yourself – it’s obvious that you don’t understand any of the healthcare plans, yet you’re running your mouth nonstop about all this socialist non-sense – even as I’ve shown you above that none of these plans are socialist. Can you really answer why you oppose:
1) stopping insurance carriers from dropping people when they get sick;
2) stopping insurance carriers from refusing coverage to people because of a pre-existing condition;
3) not being dependent on having a job to have insuranace;
4) not being dependent on your employer keeping your coverage
5) getting control of co-pays and preminums that go up every year by having a base level public plan that will set the floor for what insurance companies will cover.
Are you really against these reforms? Just answer that. Really, who opposes this? How is this kookiness? How are these reforms “unreasonable”?
As far as budget neutral, that’s what they’re trying to do. Unlike the republicans in the last administration who never even tried to pay for anything they passed (remember Medicare Part D, the tax cuts for the wealthy – all brought to us by the republicans). And because of that, we are where we are. So you’re slamming the dems by self imposing the requirement that the reforms actually pay for itself.
But rather than refine the plans on the table to focus on things like the items above, all you wingnuts can focus on are non-existent death panels and support of illegal aliens. None of you want to come to the table, so cancel that bullshit about “…if you lefties would get real and participate reasonably…” The left has bent over backwards to bring the republicans along, and all they got were lies and distortions. The “free end of life consultations” was a republican idea that the dems added, and hypocrits that they were, the republicans denounced it as “death panels”. They hounded the democrats to remove their own provision! Republicans have never had any interest in participating, only blocking it. Your congresscritters have said it themselves – they have no interest in healthcare reform – to them (and you) this is only an issue to attack Obama on (see DeMint). Healthcare reform must fail at all costs because it is perceived as Obama’s issue and we can’t have an Obama success. Just be honest.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:23 pm
MikeyW, McRock, and my other fellow libbies,
you provide me w/such entertainment with your lack of wisdom and your attempt to manipulate lies for truth. Funny how you say those who dispute the healthcare initiative are ignorant. Did it ever occur to you that the propaganda you are given by the MS media and the lack of info from the Administration distorts the truth so as not to reveal their power-grab agenda? perhaps it is you who are ignorant? For example, Why does the administration say that the program will not apply to illegal immigrants when there is no such wording in Baucus bill?
And why would the administration not undertake efforts to bring down the cost of health care such as tort reform and removing barriers for interstate competition between providers?
Oh, by the way, what happened to Obama’s pledge to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan? Also, what about his call for more transparency? He did a great job w/that w/the stimulus package … and now trying to do it again w/healthcare by suppressing honest debate. Its no wonder his poll #’s are dropping like a (Mc)Rock. He’s losing his credibility and trustworthiness among most Americans because they can see through the BS. Liberals are all about BS … they can never reveal their true agenda because they know it will not be supported.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:52 pm
From Aura’s Rasmussen link:
“Seventy-eight percent (78%) of U.S. voters say every American should be allowed to purchase the same health insurance plan that members of Congress use.”
…which is a government-run plan.
I agree that there are problems with the plans being put forth, and Obama himself has been less than crystal clear on what the nuts and bolts are of his plan, but here you have evidence that people WANT health care reform and even prefer a “socialist” model.
Now, aura, by your argument, the polling that you believe gives so much strength to your argument against “Obamacare” shows broad public support for something that is, by my reading of the right wing position (such as it is), WORSE.
So which poll results do you think that the government should act upon?
September 21st, 2009 at 9:16 pm
- “Funny how you say those who dispute the healthcare initiative are ignorant.” – What do you call people who don’t know that Medicare is run by the government, don’t know what real socialized medicine is, don’t know what age you have to be to be eligble for Medicare, don’t know that end-of-life provisions are not death panels, do not understand that Obama’s plan to cut subsidies from private insurance companies in Medicare Advantage will not result in a loss of benefits to those on the Government plan, and that the US pays twice as much per person for medical care as any other western country. They don’t know that their current insurance companies have death panels with a profit motive that ration their care, and think that they’d get a better break from a private insurer with a monetary interest in denying them health care over a government auditor (even though there is no plan for one) with no dog in the hunt. You’d think you folks have never heard of conflict of interest.
“…and the lack of info from the Administration distorts the truth so as not to reveal their power-grab agenda?” – All of the democrats plans are available online for review. The only plans that aren’t are the republicans. And the Administration doesn’t write bills – the house and the senate do.
“Why does the administration say that the program will not apply to illegal immigrants when there is no such wording in Baucus bill?” – The bill that the president was referring to contained a whole section that said it would not apply to illegal aliens – you and the other republicans chose to ignore it. At the time there was no Baucus bill. Now that there is, I’m sure this will be negotiated in, as is the case for all of the bills.
“And why would the administration not undertake efforts to bring down the cost of health care such as tort reform…” – Because less than 2% of the total cost of US healthcare is attributed to malpractice lawsuits, and also, why would you want to remove the only recourse for a patient that has been harmed by a bad doctor? Do you want to remove all of an individual’s rights? Sound to me like you’re the one proprosing socialism.
“… and removing barriers for interstate competition between providers?” – This I don’t know, and think it may be worth looking at. But like all bills, this is something that could be put on the table. I think these barriers are there becuase of the states themselves. I can see no reason why a company can’t compete in a particular state if they meet the state’s guidelines and regulations. But apparently it sounds like you want to take away certain state’s rights to set regulations within their boundaries…comrade.
“Oh, by the way, what happened to Obama’s pledge to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan?” – He’s doing it responsibly. Also, he’s tasked with cleaning up the mess left by the previous administration when they let Afghanistan languish to nationbuild in Iraq. Unfortunately, it may take some time to fix. As we say in the AF, flexibilty is the key to air power.
“He did a great job w/that w/the stimulus package …” – Yes, he did. Ask Bobby Jindal (he’s still running around handing out giant sized checks) and the other Governors. The economists says it’s what’s pulling us out of the recession. Have you looked at the stock market lately? Oh, I forget – you guys don’t talk about that anymore.
“…and now trying to do it again w/healthcare by suppressing honest debate.” – What the hell are you talking about? They’re not shouting down people and screaming at townhalls – that’s your teabaggers doing their thing. They’re not kicking out people with the wrong bumper stickers or t-shirts like Bush did. Nor are their meetings by invitation only like the previous administration. Dems have always asked the repubs to come to the table, and all they get is the crap that Grassley’s spewed – “pulling the plug on grandma” – you call that honest debate? Republicans waving silly cards with the words “republican healthcare plan” on them during Obama’s address – that’s honest debate? BTW, the Boner is over 45 days late on the republican plan, and we’re all waiting. How much do you want to bet it consists mainly of a tax cut with no plan for paying for it (as always)? We deserve better than this from the “loyal opposition” and you deserve better representation from your party. Have you checked the republican’s poll numbers lately? Much worse that Obama’s. Looks like they’ve never had trustworthiness among Americans. And rightly so.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:40 am
***** “Seventy-eight percent (78%) of U.S. voters say every American should be allowed to purchase the same health insurance plan that members of Congress use.” *****
.
.
.
.
Heck, I say this same thing, too. You’re acting like this statement is something significant towards supporting ObamaCare. It’s not. We in the mainstream view Congress as indulgent swine… in health care and so much more, and this statement is unneeded confirmation of that opinoin. We’re going to be voting out dozens of these swine in 2010.
Again, lefties, the data works against you here. The mainstream of the country rejects your kookiness.
You still want to debate your kookiness, as if somehow you’re going to convince we in the mainstream. Trust me, as I’ve been participating in this socialized medicine debate for 3-4 decades now. The mainstream doesn’t want it… then or now. Your ideas are rejected, even with the pretty new Obambi rainbow painted on the cover.
Check the data, if you require confirmation.
And check the lefty congresscritters running for cover right now, if you require additional confirmation. They have to deal with the mainstream, not you kooks, who don’t matter in this discussion. You are on the freak fringe, and the greasy congresscritters know this more than any.
And keep repeating that the mainstream is ignorant and uninformed… keep repeating it right up until the election. It’s brilliant strategy. The mainstream likes it when you do that.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:00 am
“The mainstream doesn’t want it… then or now.”
This is simply a false statement. You keep saying “check the data, check the data”…now it’s your turn. I gave you one poll above, the other and more major one was, ONCE AGAIN, the election. Obama campaigned on expanding health care for all americans. It was clear to all that one likely way of doing this is to expand Medicare-type coverage more widely. So once again what I think you’re trying very unsuccessfully to do is argue that your fringe anti-government anti-obama beliefs are somehow mainstream. Right.
Also, you keep harping on the politics of this, you and other posters. Of course, it is becoming abundantly clear that your opposition to Obama, whether it be his health care plan, his foreign policy, whatever, is based ENTIRELY on politics. Americans can see that. They can see Republicans’ spurning Obama’s efforts to bring them to the table to solve a problem they want solved. They can see that you are lying about his plans, making up things, trying to create fear (which as you know crowds out reason, something your idiocy depends on to work).
I will make one point and then be done with you. Some kind of healthcare plan will pass congress. Like the stimulus package, it will very likely be greeted happily by many people as a success, perhaps even a great one. I am wondering what the electoral map will look like after 2010 if, as is currently the case, EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN has opposed these successes, rather than having taken the offered opportunity to participate in shaping and implementing them?
That’s really what you should all be asking yourselves right now.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:28 am
buddy, you were done 30-40 years ago.
The electoral map of 2010 is going to show that a bunch of incumbents will be thrown out on their ass.
You’re trumpeting that Obambi won an election against a miserable, senile, corrupt old coot? And should get whatever kookiness you kooks want as a result? Please.
That’s not how the system works, and all your whining doesn’t change the system.
Check the data, if you want to see how the system works. The congresscritters know the system, and they’re fleeing from ObamaCare in droves as a result.
Check the data, if you require confirmation.
And keep calling the mainstream stupid and illegitimate. It’s good strategy.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:52 am
Check the data, aura? There’s no data to check to support your assertions.
“That’s not how the system works, and all your whining doesn’t change the system.”
Um, yes it is….just go ahead and….Check the Data.
Your argument has been reduced to, essentially, “You’ll See!! Lies are Politically Effective!!”. Just to be clear….this is not a serious debate with a serious person.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:59 am
McCock/mikeyw~~~move to sweden, that socialist utopia needs more like you, as they are now backing off slightly from their cradle to grave welfare state, and they need a jump start from useful idiots like yourselves. A few more turds in their punch bowl of statism is just what the doctor(socialized) ordered.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:26 am
Warner, you’re right, this isn’t a “debate”. The debate’s over. It was over 30-40 years ago.
Check the data, if you require confirmation. And check the congresscritters, as they best gauge the mainstream sentiment, and know to ignore the fringe kooks.
And again, keep calling the mainstream liars, stupid and uninformed, and illegitimate. That’ll work wonders come election 2010.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:45 am
Aura, your argument is so confused and irrelevant to the subject at hand it is a waste to even reply any more.
Do you really believe that posting a few critical blog posts in some wingnut backwater of the internet amounts to “calling the mainstream liars” and that these few challenges of your evident misunderstanding is….going to have an electoral affect?
Really, maybe it’s time to abandon ship. You’re not even attempting to directly challenging the substantive criticisms to the senseless false accusations you and others are making here. To me, that’s evidence of surrender and retreat.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:51 am
DQ,
I’ve been to Sweden. Twice. I have friends and colleagues there. And while I’m not sure I’d want to live there just for the free and cheap health care for everyone and very high standard of living, the Swedish women are another story…
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:57 am
Warner, as mentioned, no need to argue with you. The argument’s long over.
It’s about counting, now. Check the data.
Now, you can keep arguing, but we in the mainstream will be busy counting. And if you still keep arguing, and calling those who disagree with you stupid, ill informed and illegitimate, you will only identify yourself to the mainstream as a fringe kook, bleating shrilly, as we in the mainstream are busy counting. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. Check the data.
Now, on the other hand, you can pick up some sensible ideas that the mainstream supports, and join us, and we can get something sensible done, absent ObamaCare and socialized medicine, and the rest of the kookiness that the mainstream has already rejected. Unfortunately, you appear set on ObamaCare, which is a closed discussion, so we’re back to counting.
Again, check the data. The mainstream is quite willing to go forward from here, and accept the status quo, rather than go with the kookiness. You appear not to be so satisfied. I’d suggest you start bending your position, and move toward the mainstream, if so. The mainstream won’t be moving, and hasn’t over the 30-40 years I’ve been following this discussion.
The congresscritters are doing so, as we see. They know better than to listen to the kooks, you may depend. They like those jobs.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:09 am
Warner, lemme give you a few ideas you might want to consider, as reasonable reforms, to help pull you away from the freak fringe kookiness and join us in the mainstream:
* lawsuit abuse reforms
* insurance portability
* interstate insurance competition
* means testing for Medicare (this is a tough one, and the hardcore socialist Left will fight you tooth and nail on this, and will be joined by the elder voters, but this should happen to help control Medicare costs, and give people choices and keep them away from the “Death Panel” that they’re so scared of.)
There are others, but you first have to give up the dream of socialism, and accept that market based reforms will be blended into the approach, and not simply the pure socialist takeover you’d prefer.
It’s about compromise, and that’s what the mainstream seeks. Join us, or suffer the electoral consequences. 2010 is setting up as a bloodbath, not because your opposition is any good… because they’re not… but rather because of Left kookiness.
Again, check the data.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:22 am
“And if you still keep arguing, and calling those who disagree with you stupid, ill informed and illegitimate, you will only identify yourself to the mainstream as a fringe kook, bleating shrilly, as we in the mainstream are busy counting.”
Well I guess here’s where we disagree. Because not only are we calling you ill informed, we are demonstrating this point.
Just for one of many examples, you again propose:
“* lawsuit abuse reforms”
…even after MikeyW already pointed out the DATA (that he checked, but not you, laughably) showing that:
“… less than 2% of the total cost of US healthcare is attributed to malpractice lawsuits”.
So…what is one to think? You insist on demonstrably false, useless of pointless lines of argument that do nothing to address the overwhelming goal of Americans to 1) provide health care to all, and 2) drastically reduce costs (we’re paying twice as much for worse care than most other Western countries…CHECK THE DATA!!! LMAO).
The republicans have done zilch to address this. Nothing. And if there are any predictions to be made, it is that the public will hold them accountable for not only failing to propose solutions but actively seeking to impede Obama’s efforts for POLITICAL gain. That just doesn’t look good no matter how you slice and dice it.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:35 am
Sorry, Warner, but lawsuit abuse and defensive medicine are estimated to cost us FAR more than what you’re typing there.
More importantly, the mainstream accepts that “FAR more” estimate, and rejects what you’re asserting. They sharply disagree with you.
Your response to that data, and to the mainstream’s analysis of that data, is to reject it and the mainstream both, and spew hardcore lefty claptrap, and call them stupid, uninformed and illegitimate.
Sorry, but that is the route to electoral bloodbath. I’m giving you alternatives, which will sell to the mainstream, and you appear to be clinging to your comfortable dogma.
The argument’s over, until you move. I’m quite comfortable with the data. Let’s get to counting.
I assure you, the congresscritters are aware of all this, and that’s why they’re fleeing from the ObamaCare you’re proscribing, lest they fall victim to the bloodbath, and those greaseballs know the lay of the land, believe me.
Again, I’d suggest you get with reality, and join us in the mainstream. It’s not so bad over here, and you’ve got plenty of company. Just try it out. Let go of the dogma, and throw those trial lawyers under the bus. You’ll feel better. And you might avoid the bloodbath.
You gotta move, bud. The mainstream ain’t gonna. We’re the mainstream.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:43 am
“…but lawsuit abuse and defensive medicine are estimated to cost us FAR more than what you’re typing there.”
Oh really? Show us the data. Live by the sword, etc.
“More importantly, the mainstream accepts that “FAR more” estimate, and rejects what you’re asserting. They sharply disagree with you.”
Same old same old….”My lies are working, so join me”. LMFAO.
I think it’s more dangerous to think that most people are stupid enough to believe the crap that you keep putting out there, Aura, because while you decry the alleged accusations of general stupidity, your arguments depend on it.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:03 am
the free and cheap health care for everyone and very high standard of living, the Swedish women are another story…
~~~~warner
Mind warp. It isn’t free to those who pay the plus 60% tax rates.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:13 am
Warner, again, you think I’m arguing or debating this with you. I’m not. The debate’s long over. We’re counting, now, and the mainstream agrees with me on lawsuit abuse and rejecting ObamaCare, among other things. Check the data, and the congresscritters’ scrambling to get away from your kooky ideas.
I’m offering you a path to the mainstream, so that you can join with us and do something productive, rather than be tossed into the shitcan with ObamaCare, as you appear headed. The above ideas are of the mainstream, and you should consider embracing them.
We in the mainstream have reviewed the data long ago. If you haven’t done so, I’d suggest you get busy. You’re a little late, but it’d be good practice for you.
And again, keep it up with the mainstream as “stupid” and “dangerous”. That’s good strategy for the 2010 election, when we REALLY get to counting. It’s REAL good strategy.
Come on, fellah, swallow your pride. Do something incremental and constructive. Check the data, and it’ll tell you that the alternative is the shitcan, and I’d hope you’d be sensible enough to want to avoid that.
Throw those trial lawyers under the bus. Make your bones. That’ll help bring you into the mainstream.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:42 am
“Mind warp. It isn’t free to those who pay the plus 60% tax rates.”
True, good point, my mistake.
But not everyone in Sweden pays 60% either my man:
“In 2002, personal income tax rates, the combination of state and local rates, were 31% on the first increment of taxable income up to 232,600 Krona (about $173,065); 51% on the next increment up to 374,000 Krona (about $278,000); and 56% on increments of income above 374,000 Krona. Personal deductions vary between 8,600 and 18,100 Krona ($6,364 and $13, 400). A health tax is levied at 1.5%.”
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:46 am
“Warner, again, you think I’m arguing or debating this with you. I’m not.”
No I don’t and no you’re not, Aura, that’s clear. Repeating exactly or nearly the same thing over and over and over and over in response to every point certainly does not classify as such.
“We in the mainstream have reviewed the data long ago.”
You’ve obviously seen one too many episodes of Outer Limits…
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:10 am
Dear warner, move to sweden if it’s so great.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:18 am
Even the swedish iceheads are finally seeing the light, unlike the brain dead left here at home.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:30 am
- “The debate’s long over. We’re counting, now, and the mainstream agrees with me on lawsuit abuse and rejecting ObamaCare, among other things.” – No, it doesn’t. Cantor just got his ass handed to him by one of those “mainstream Americans” in his district wanting to know what the hell the republicans are going to do about healthcare. It looks like republican lies won’t be enough to sustain the beast. You need to break away from that one man circle jerk you got going over there. You can’t declare an issue over just because you’ve run out of talking points (I live the “nyaa nyaa, I can’t hear you arguement – I haven’t seen that one since the third grade).
- ” Check the data, and the congresscritters’ scrambling to get away from your kooky ideas.” – Is that why Rep. Charles Boustany (R-LA), speaking for the republicans after Obama’s adress say that the repubs agree with 80% of the healthcare plan? Doesn’t sound like running away to me. The only ones running away are the fringers like you, who are perfectly happy paying twice as much for lousy healthcare as long as it goes against Obama. We’re going to have healthcare reform, even if we have to drag you insurance company apologists the whole way. And we’ll fix the financial mess left by the previous republican admimistration at the same time.
So why don’t you check out some data – find out why we have to pay so much for healthcare and get so little in return. Find out why we don’t live as long as people in countries with real socialized medicine do. Find out why 50% of the bankruptcies in the US are due to healthcare bills, and why 80% of the people that file for bankruptcy becuase they can’t pay their medical bills actually have health insuranace.
Rather than crowing about how successful you and the insurance companies have been in duping the American public to go against their own best interests, you should be worried about getting sick. Some of us are actually trying to help your sorry ass.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:35 am
No, Warner, my positions are firmly rooted in the data, and reality. Believe me, I wouldn’t be so sneeringly condescending to you, if that wasn’t so. On these issues, you are going to have to make some movement, make no mistake.
Now yes, the mainstream reaching out to you lefties involves reaching out to the freak fringe , “the Outer Limits” as you reference it. We in the mainstream are obligated to do that, to solicit your involvement in the direction we’ll be going. It’d be better if you involved yourselves in something sensible, for you and for us, but as you can well see in the congresscritters’ reactions to all this, we’ll be going in that sensible direction with or without you lefties.
You should join us, because if you don’t, everything you’re pushing for goes into the shitcan. Everything.
Compromise gets you something sensible and helpful for many. Strident dogma gets you the shitcan, in an electoral bloodbath.
Think about it: insurance reform, lawsuit abuse reform, reasonable Medicare reform. That’s all sensible, and the mainstream will welcome you into the fold. Even Obambi is making noises that at least sound like this.
Unlike him, you gotta truly shitcan the trial lawyers, though. Just do it. Do it even though you have to grit your teeth, and admit you’re giving in. It’ll feel good, bud. You’ll be part of the mainstream.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:41 am
And Warner, again, I’d recommend you stay clear of the above lefty’s bleating about how the mainstream is being “duped”.
It might feel good, whining like that, but it’s electoral bloodbath sorta talk.
The mainstream will deal with that in the usual manner, you may depend. That 2010 election could be just a setback for the Left, or it could be an absolute disaster, and the Left’s own actions will decide which. Choose wisely.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:49 am
- “I’ve been participating in this socialized medicine debate for 3-4 decades now. The mainstream doesn’t want it… then or now.” – Hell yes they do! A good chunck of them are already on it! The’re protesting because you republicans have scared them into believing that they’re going to lose it! I want to see a republican with the balls to tell these seniors that they want to take away their Medicare. The silence is deafening.
September 22nd, 2009 at 11:25 am
- “That 2010 election could be just a setback for the Left, or it could be an absolute disaster, and the Left’s own actions will decide which.” – Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa – what a clown, you are. People like you were claiming Obama was going to lose because of the Bradley Effect and the PUMAs back in November. You got your asses handed to you. It must have killed you to see Obama sworn in. Here’s a hint for you: you are in the minority and you are their for a reason. You sucked at running the government, and you have no ideas. The dems control the house, the dems control the senate, the dems control the white house. and they just put a lefty supreme court justice on the court and all the repubs could do was whine – some got smart and voted for her. This must be killing you. Healthcare reform will be decided by democrats; republicans are irrelevant. They can be relevant if they chose, but they don’t have the guts (well, maybe Snowe or Collins). The blue dogs dems are owned by the industry – that’s who the battle is against – all republicans are is noise. They may win big in 2010, but that depends on how well the country is doing then. So you just keep praying for America to fail like a good little traitor…
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
- “Think about it: insurance reform, lawsuit abuse reform, reasonable Medicare reform.” – Dude, except for lawsuit abuse reform, this is exactly what Obama and the dems are proposing. Do you even read? And why not “lawsuit abuse reform”? Because it’s a red herring
““According to the actuarial consulting firm Towers Perrin, medical malpractice tort costs were $30.4 billion in 2007…..[out of] more than a $2 trillion health care system. That puts litigation costs and malpractice insurance at 1 to 1.5 percent of total medical costs. That’s a rounding error. Liability isn’t even the tail on the cost dog. It’s the hair on the end of the tail. ”
Again, your ignorance is on parade! And guys like you push this non-issue out to the masses like Moses coming down from the mountain as if it means something. Then you get the old geezers and people too lazy to do their research all fired up. Tort reform is only a distraction. Yet the “liberal media” let you guys get away with these distractions every time. Look at the damn data: in every state where tort reform and award caps have been in place, insurance costs and healthcare costs have continued to go thru the roof. Another source:
” All malpractice insurance costs, all tort related costs, attorney fees, court costs AND awards payed out, all costs combined for malpractice equal about ONE PERCENT (1.0%) of what we spend annually on health care.
And those costs have been stable for the last twenty years.
Insurance company overhead and profit are approximately THIRTY FIVE PERCENT (35.0%) of what we spend on health care annually.
These costs are also fairly stable for the last twenty years.
See where your money is really going?
I believe in profit.”
You’re getting ripped off, and instead of being pissed off, you revel in it.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:06 pm
buddy, you should steer away from the little D and R squabble you’re stuck in. We in the mainstream care not about little D’s or R’s. You sound like all the RINOs who used to infest this site, that’s all they ever squealed about as well.
If it makes you feel any better… I agree with you that the Republicans are assholes. Of course, we in the mainstream know that the Democrats are assholes as well. That’s the problem with you fierce partisans… of either stripe… you don’t see that… that they’re both assholes.
Once you recognize that fact, and deal strictly with issues, you identify yourself as part of the mainstream.
I’d agree with you that Democrats have full control of government, and can do whatever they want, so it’s amusing to see you in here whining about Republicans. They don’t matter, by your calculus.
You’re right, they don’t matter, but not for the reasons you think. They don’t matter because they’re assholes, just like Democrats. We in the mainstream recognize that fact. We matter, and we want nothing to do with your sacred ObamaCare.
And the assholes know this, and know they pay a price if they cross the mainstream. That’s why they’re abandoning ObamaCare in droves. Check the data.
So ends your political lesson for today.
Tomorrow, I’ll teach you how to compromise, and throw those lawyers under the bus. If you study hard, you might make it out of the fringe and into the mainstream someday.
And remember, disparaging the mainstream is the road to an electoral bloodbath for the Left. That’s a bonus lesson.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
And spare us the cherry picked data from the trial lawyers, which I notice doesn’t include the costs for defensive medicine, which you’ve conveniently omitted, as it is a huge cost of lawsuit abuse.
Believe me, we in the mainstream have reviewed the real data, and we’ve made our mind up on the trial lawyers and defensive medicine. Check the data on that. Whine about it all you want, but the deed is done.
You’ve lost the argument with the mainstream of this country. We oppose ObamaCare, and would rather do NOTHING than what you’re proposing, and that’s stunning. We’d rather shitcan ObamaCare, if we have to, and do nothing. Stunning, but that’s what the data shows.
Again, check the data.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Aura of Repetitiveness,
You seem to believe that constantly typing the phrases “we in the mainstream” or “check the data” somehow will magically make these things true. Only the most self-deluded fool would presume to speak for others as broadly as you have or continue to make such sweeping unsubstantiated claims. MikeyW alone has shot you down so many times it’s not even funny anymore. You resemble nothing more than the amputated knight from Monty Python who promises to “gum us to death”.
Sometimes, you know, it’s fun to beat up on the heavy bag a bit, even as it is an immobile target. Aura, thanks for being that bag on this thread. You play the part well.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Dude, you can’t beat up on the mainstream, we beat up on YOU… when you get on the wrong side of us.
And right now, you’re on the wrong side of us. Check the data.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
I think we’ve about covered this for now, kids. I do recommend you find a way to let go of your tight hold on the lefty dogma. Clinging to a hopeless cause will inevitably bring on disappointment, but tempering your approach and working for something productive would be worthwhile, and politically fruitful, or at least avoidant of political disaster.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:54 pm
- “…which I notice doesn’t include the costs for defensive medicine…” – Umm yes it does. Consider reading the article.
- “Believe me, we in the mainstream have reviewed the real data, and we’ve made our mind up on the trial lawyers and defensive medicine.” – Really? What numbers and facts do you have? You have no clue what actual malpractice and defensive medicine costs are – just some nebulous “FAR more” estimate” (lol). Clue: that doesn’t conststiture a review. You’re too lazy to even pull a real number out of your ass. You didn’t even know the number was so low. Well, now you do – you got a free education. Instead of sending me a check, just go ask your congressman why he’s wasting time on such piddling crap as tort reform.
- You cling to this poll data number as if it were a life vest, and for you it is. There’s no “data” there, just a lonely litttle number that won’t have any relevance in the grand scheme of things. You have no real healthcare facts at your disposal to back up your position, just a poll number. The winds blow, and polls change – the facts that I’ve provided will still be facts. Your only hope is for the public to remain gullible and ignorant, and will continue to believe the lies. Good luck with that – it didn’t work last November.
Speaking of schooling – you’ll probably notice that one by one, I’ve knocked down your weak arguments, until all you have is that poll number. Now you have no real argument against health care other than that itty bitty poll number. And based on that poll number you think health care reform is dead. Sorry – the big decisions in the country aren’t made with poll numbers – especially just one. Years from now, you’ll be thanking us for bringing you affordable, dependable, portable healthcare that follows you and not your employment status, with no annual lifetime caps.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:56 pm
- “Aura of Repetitiveness” – heh – that cracks me up…
September 23rd, 2009 at 5:38 am
***** “Your only hope is for the public to remain gullible and ignorant, and will continue to believe the lies.” *****
.
.
.
.
.
Yep, keep calling the mainstream “stupid” and “gullible” and “ignorant”. It’s BRILLIANT electoral strategy. It ALWAYS works!.
Thing is, lefty, I’ve been debating this with you lefties for 30-40 years, and there really isn’t much to say anymore. If you haven’t heard all the arguments, on both sides, then you’re not paying attention. We in the mainstream have paid attention, all along, and the bottom line is that the mainstream has rejected socialized medicine, over and over again. That’s really all that needs discussing.
Now, you can temper your extremist approach, quit insulting the mainstream, and do something reasonable, and you’d likely even find some electoral success in that.
Or, you can do what Clinton did, alienate everybody, and watch the Congress turn over. Your choice. This is all quite predictable, and it’s just a matter of accepting reality.
Check the data, kids.
September 23rd, 2009 at 5:40 am
You still seem to be frantic and desperate for a “debate”, lefty.
The debate is loooooong over.
Check the data.